Why all the Emulated EQ servers if EQ is free to play?

Elidroth_sl said:

People always comment on "Re-doing the graphics" of EQ without ever really taking into consideration what that really means. So here's a short version:
It takes an artist about a month to revamp a single zone into a new version of it. There are now over 700 non-instanced zones in EQ.
Each player model has over 120 different animations that need to be created for any new version. Now multiply that by 2 (male & female) times 16 races.
Once new player models have been created, you have to then create armor for those new models. It currently takes about 6 weeks for an artist to develop a completely new set of armor (for all races/genders).
You'll obviously need to create new particles/effects for spells as well.

I'm not saying it CAN'T be done, but it's truly a mountain of work, and has to be balanced against how much money it might actually return.

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If people really want it, they may be able to recreate it themselves in Landmark (to a degree) once all of the systems are in place for model creation, scripting, combat etc.

The images are too large to post here, so I will just post a link to the post on the landmark forums. I did this in a few hours. It is as close as I could get to recreating the original West Freeport zone in Landmark:
West Freeport Recreated in EQNext Landmark

I used the emulator to get access to the old version of the zone on my server for reference when building it

I already saved it as a template and removed it from my claim due to lack of space, so no one can go and check it out now unfortunately.

Depending on how the game ends up, I can imagine some projects like that coming out of Landmark.

I haven't played Live since LoY and only tooled around in EMU because P99 didn't exist in the state it does today.

I left the MMO scene because MMOs didn't feel like MMOs after WoW and WoW was not even as good as EQ (community generation wise). I left EQ because SoE had no interest in its players and Blizzard did. I left WoW because i wasn't their target audience.

I say that to say this. I haven't seen an MMO released in a long time. I would pay to play a well managed MMO that captures what makes DnD/Clasic EQ (they're synonymous to me) great. Eli, you have proven to me SoE still doesn't understand. Sooner or later a dev house is going to steal what little remains of your thunder and do what you refuse to and the EMUs can't completely (potentially with your own tools - EQ:N). I understand risk and finances, but I also understand what passion and innovation are and which pair get you a game worth sharing with potential friends.

Regardless of what gets posted on here, a large portion of this thread could have been recreated simply by bringing a mirror into your team's office and looking into it with an open mind. That's the real answer to your OP.

Elidroth_sl said:

Do you also understand that what gets done on my team gets decided far above it? Everything we do has to be approved by upper management. It has to make financial sense.

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And that answer right there is why this whole thread should be rickshawed. You come here asking why, then totally ignore the answer and try to explain why not. We know why not. And if you actually played on some of the emu servers maybe you'll understand why we play on them. But I doubt anyone from soe has even bothered to check out the emu servers.

korzax_sl said:

And that answer right there is why this whole thread should be rickshawed. You come here asking why, then totally ignore the answer and try to explain why not. We know why not. And if you actually played on some of the emu servers maybe you'll understand why we play on them. But I doubt anyone from soe has even bothered to check out the emu servers.

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He was just asking a question, it wasn't with the caveat that this was some SoE backed case study to gauge interest in making a classic server.

Elidroth_sl said:

Do you also understand that what gets done on my team gets decided far above it? Everything we do has to be approved by upper management. It has to make financial sense.

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What I don't understand is how with 1500 peak CCU on Project 1999 that SOE doesn't decide a classic server isn't a good idea.

Let's say there's 40,000 active players on Project 1999, and 98,000 accounts made (probably more). Multiply that by a $15/mo subscription option. In the first month alone I almost guarantee you'll be making close to a million USD.

Even if it's not classic and used the EQMac code with a cash shop built in, plus Windows support, you'd probably reach the same numbers. Just saying.

I'd argue they won't get even 5% of those to sub for a classic server. Plus, they'd still be competing against P99 and all the other EMU servers out there, which are doing it better, longer, and cheaper.

I really wish SOE would support P99, but I understand that's a dual edged sword. They are still marketing and selling current EQ, which still has a good chunk of people playing.

Gecko_sl said:

I'd argue they won't get even 5% of those to sub for a classic server. Plus, they'd still be competing against P99 and all the other EMU servers out there, which are doing it better, longer, and cheaper.

I really wish SOE would support P99, but I understand that's a dual edged sword. They are still marketing and selling current EQ, which still has a good chunk of people playing.

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Jagex made a classic RuneScape 2 server that's doing the exact same thing and boasts more players than what classic RuneScape 2 emulators have ever had.

RuneScape 2007 Server - Play Old School RS

Secrets_sl said:

What I don't understand is how with 1500 peak CCU on Project 1999 that SOE doesn't decide a classic server isn't a good idea.

Let's say there's 40,000 active players on Project 1999, and 98,000 accounts made (probably more). Multiply that by a $15/mo subscription option. In the first month alone I almost guarantee you'll be making close to a million USD.

Even if it's not classic and used the EQMac code with a cash shop built in, plus Windows support, you'd probably reach the same numbers. Just saying.

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That's a huge leap to assume players who are playing for free are all of a sudden going to drop 15 a month on a SoE classic server. Keeping in mind P99 will continue to exist and also there is a sizeable group on P99 that wouldn't touch SoE with a 10 foot poll. Again lets get to the technical aspect of it all. How would they incorporate a 'p99' server with the client they already have without breaking what's already on live?

Elidroth_sl said:

I know your opinions on this very well, Torrid.

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And now you know that I'm not alone in my opinions.

I always liked you Elid, so I take no pleasure in telling you that I hate your game (really), but I do you no favors by lying to you. You wanted honest feedback. I assume this thread started because of my PM to you.

Regardless, not everything I said was an opinion. Modern EQ is objectively a VERY different game. Players do not get anywhere near the same play experience in your game as they do on p99.

If there isn't enough interest in a true classic server to devote resources to it, then you shouldn't care that this tiny, insignificant minority plays emus. If the market won't give players what they want, then they'll make it themselves. Some of the emu devs have been at this for the better part of a decade. Shutting down the last official classic EQ refuge (eqmac) also prompted me to contribute to the preservation of the game SOE abandoned. I spent more time doing tedious research of Sony's old game than I have played any MMOG, other than p99 and eqmac, since 2008.

Vandyn_sl said:

The evidence what is out on the market now. The people that want EQ 2.0 decry all things 'themepark' and WoW-ish, yet WoW still pulls 6.5 million on a 10 year old game. Everyone points to EvE as the shining beacon of niche/non-handholding gameplay yet failing to realize that it took many years for that game to even achieve 100k subs, let alone what it has now. He's posted numerous times the amount of work something like this would involve (a classic server), can you guarantee a return of investment? Can you guarantee that the average player is going to stay subbed for a year? I don't think so and that's why SoE isn't going to commit time/resources/money to a project that a) is not guaranteed to be financially successful and b) is not guaranteed to be technologically feasible.

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This is a tried argument. ALL GAMES are risks. Blizzard had no idea how many subs they would get when they launched. WoW clones fail all the time. Copying Blizzard doesn't guarantee success, in fact I would argue that it hinders it. (why would I play your clone over the real thing?) The sad thing is, WoW hasn't been killed BECAUSE studios have been too timid to try something new. (that and it takes 100 million to make a game from scratch, but anyway)

Gecko_sl said:

I'd argue they won't get even 5% of those to sub for a classic server. Plus, they'd still be competing against P99 and all the other EMU servers out there, which are doing it better, longer, and cheaper.

I really wish SOE would support P99, but I understand that's a dual edged sword. They are still marketing and selling current EQ, which still has a good chunk of people playing.

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They would get a huge number of people for a classic server. Most that jump onto new progression servers at lauch are there for classic and not progression. Fippy server was doing fine population wise right up to the point where they opened GoD then it did exactly what happened when GoD was released on normal servers.

Why do you think he is asking about it? Maybe because they are working on a variation of a semi classic server for release in the near future.

I have no doubt they could fill up a clasic server for at least a few years if they released one.

I'd roll up on a classic server on a fucking heartbeat

Quaid_sl said:

I'd roll up on a classic server on a fucking heartbeat

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Me too. I want to group up and grind mobs. Is there anything better than some of the group chat and /ooc that happens when grinding? I'm sick of collect 5 whatevers quests and grinding boring meaningless quests to level. I'm waiting for a fresh classic server to play on, will SoE shut up and take my money or no?

Secrets_sl said:

What I don't understand is how with 1500 peak CCU on Project 1999 that SOE doesn't decide a classic server isn't a good idea.

Let's say there's 40,000 active players on Project 1999, and 98,000 accounts made (probably more). Multiply that by a $15/mo subscription option. In the first month alone I almost guarantee you'll be making close to a million USD.

Even if it's not classic and used the EQMac code with a cash shop built in, plus Windows support, you'd probably reach the same numbers. Just saying.

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I wouldn't touch a $15 subscription server that also comes with a cash shop with a 10 foot pole.

Quineloe_sl said:

I wouldn't touch a $15 subscription server that also comeswith a cash shopwith a 10 foot pole.

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This right here. Once EQ went F2P with a cash shop, the hope of the classic server (as close to p99) went out the window since I see zero way they would incorporate any server that doesn't have the cash shop integrated and at that point, no one is going to play on that.

Elidroth_sl said:

Do you also understand that what gets done on my team gets decided far above it? Everything we do has to be approved by upper management. It has to make financial sense.

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Since I was 14 years old, I dreamed about working for Game company, until I realized what is written above - I will NEVER be making the game I want to make. There will always be someone, who doesn't even know difference between StarCraft and Pokemon, looking over my shoulder telling me: "I don't think this is going to sell" or "No we won't invest into that".

EMU gives me something that no business oriented firm can - ability to make MY WORLD.

With older single player games - investors had no choice but to risk with their money and hope that product sells, leaving the developer to do as they please (mostly), with MMO - it must be a working business model first, and only then a game.


P.S. On a side note: Blizzard does takes risks (somewhat) - in last 2 years they took steps to rewamp their spec/talent system twice, and they doing it again for the next exp. I can't say that I like all the changes they done since BC (reducing XP needed to level, lowering raids down to 1 group etc), but the recent spec/talent changes I like.

Why all the Emulated EQ servers if EQ is free to play?

For the old school experience or a completely different experience. Something that isn't offered by SOE at any price point. At this point old school can mean anything from Classic to pre-SoF generic gear in my book.

Have you ever actually tried to play EQ for "free" other than maybe on the test server? EQ F2P model is pretty terrible. If you actually want to play the game in somewhat recent content or any special server they introduce it is sub + paid expansions + item shop. All for a game that really brings very little to the table at this point. Generic gear, not groupcentric, dated graphics, etc. I am better off playing WoW, FFXIV, or Rift.

Would I pay $15/mo or more for an "official" classic server or yearly timed expansion server up to and including PoP? Yep, absolutely if done right. When I say done right I mean at least get close to P1999 standards. No overpowered gear from later expansions or revamped zones popping up all over the place. As others have mentioned, the item shop would make this a no go for me as well. Who's gonna buy my lovely handcrafted backpacks when they can just get a 30+ slot for a little RL $. My xp groups are also going to suck when a couple people are chugging those pots.